, Associate Professor of Theology & Culture at 天美视频, has released his second book, . In the book, Ron wonders how the world鈥檚 perceptions of Christians鈥攁nd, therefore, its perception of Christ鈥攎ight change if our way of doing justice work is as important as the end result. 鈥淭he way you treat the person you love the least is the way you love God the most,鈥� says Ron. Here, we鈥檙e featuring a conversation with Ron about the themes of the book and his hopes about the impact it will have on readers. You can also read on our blog, and you鈥檙e invited to , December 5 at 天美视频, featuring a conversation between Ron and , Associate Professor of Theology.
First of all, congratulations! This is your second book, and it feels like quite an accomplishment to have both of these out in the world.
You know, before , I never planned on writing a book鈥攅specially after I finished my dissertation. I felt so called and compelled to finish that, but at no point did I think about publishing. I never thought I鈥檇 write one book, let alone two. I feel like a practical theologian who wants to preach and talk to people about what it means to follow Jesus in the world. That鈥檚 what I鈥檓 asking in this book: What does it mean to be a Christian in the world?
How do you go about addressing that question?
I start with my experience of being sent into hard places, then I try to offer some ideas that feel like actions we can all participate in. But I try to never remove those ideas too far from my own life.
Which means that, in your writing, you use a lot of narrative. Why is storytelling important to you?
I鈥檇 love to say it鈥檚 because Jesus did it. But, too, I think it鈥檚 because when we tell stories, we invite people into a place where they can identify with any character, or with multiple characters. Like in the Good Samaritan鈥攊f I鈥檓 totally honest, I probably see myself in every role except the Good Samaritan. I think it鈥檚 important to be able to identify with multiple characters, especially if they aren鈥檛 flat or one-dimensional.
My mother was a storyteller, so I became a storyteller through genetics. And I love it鈥擨 love telling stories.
So to go from not wanting to write a book at all to, now, releasing your second book鈥攚hat changed?
For the first book, I was asked to write about how to work with street kids. I thought, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 think I can write that book. But I can write about what young people on the street have taught me.鈥� This time, I was asked if I would write a book on justice. I said, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 know if I want to write a book on the 鈥榳hat鈥� of justice, but I sure would like to write a book about the how.鈥� How do we go about being Christians in the world? What does it mean to love the world to death?
In Advanced Reading Seminar, we鈥檙e reading through David Bosch鈥檚 book , and there鈥檚 a brilliant quote: 鈥淚n the final analysis it was not the miracles of itinerant evangelists and wandering monks that impressed the populace鈥攎iracle workers were a familiar phenomenon in the ancient world鈥攂ut the exemplary lives of ordinary Christians.鈥� As I think about this new book, I want people to know that they鈥檙e loved. I want my neighbors to know that they鈥檙e loved. I want the world to know. If I love you and you don鈥檛 do what I want, do I still love you? I think yes鈥擨 think that鈥檚 what it means to follow Jesus. And that feels really risky. It feels vulnerable, and it feels transformational.
If I love you and you don鈥檛 do what I want, do I still love you?
A lot of us can resonate with the idea that living radically loving, open lives鈥攅ngaging humanity in all of its suffering and brokenness鈥攆eels risky. What do you think it is that scares us so much?
I think the real avoidance of human suffering is about the powerlessness that comes with it. But I鈥檇 argue that the powerlessness I feel as I enter into other people鈥檚 suffering is part of the work of justice. It levels the playing field and makes me just as human as the person I want to advocate for. And that sucks. That I鈥檓 human, that I can be with somebody in not knowing, it鈥檚 a really powerful idea, but it can feel disempowering. Because all I can be is human.
But what happens when the need feels too overwhelming, when whatever humanity we can offer seems like not nearly enough?
I lean heavily on Kathleen O鈥機onnor鈥檚 work, . We鈥檙e supposed to do good in the world, but what does it mean when all I can do is cry? O鈥機onnor writes about why lament is so powerful鈥攏ot a resignation to evil, but a demand that says it鈥檚 not supposed to be this way. There鈥檚 no better response to evil than to be with powerless people in powerless times and say it鈥檚 not supposed to be that way.
There鈥檚 something freeing in that. Like we鈥檙e not going for results or success in the way we usually think of it.
William Willimon makes a comment about the Sermon on the Mount, that it鈥檚 not because you鈥檒l get better results, but because it鈥檚 the way of Jesus. It鈥檚 not outcome-based. Turning the other cheek doesn鈥檛 stop somebody from hitting you. Sometimes we go, 鈥淚f I do good in the world, better things will happen.鈥� No鈥攜ou do good because it鈥檚 the ethics of Jesus, regardless of the outcome.
It seems like the personal work, growing into a place where you鈥檙e able to offer that, is pretty crucial.
There鈥檚 this metaphor in scripture about wilderness, exile, desert. In order for folks to move on from unjust situations, not only do we have to make corporate decisions that are hard, people have to make individual decisions that are hard. It鈥檚 that old phrase: you can鈥檛 take anybody where you aren鈥檛 willing to go. We need to understand that the places of wilderness in our own lives are really important. There鈥檚 something individually transformative about justice. If you鈥檙e asking people to step into something that鈥檚 unfamiliar, you have to be willing to step into the unfamiliar yourself.
The places of wilderness in our own lives are really important.
Lament, wilderness, exile, hard decisions鈥攖his is pretty heavy territory. What keeps you going?
This might be a ridiculous belief in the world today, but I still believe in the resurrection. I don鈥檛 believe it in a way that pushes me into the sweet hereafter, I believe it in a way that pushes me back into the world. I think that鈥檚 where this whole idea of Closer to the Edge came from. I can hold this life far more loosely than I thought I could if I believe in resurrection. If I gamble on the story of God being true, I can live differently in the world: I can forgive, I can lament, I can sit with people who are suffering, in a very different way if I truly believe that God redeems all things.
So my wish, what I want people to do, is I want us to be a little less afraid. I think most of the behaviors that the church has labeled as sin originate out of fear. So much of the world, so much of our behaviors, is about fear鈥擨鈥檓 afraid I鈥檓 getting old, I鈥檓 afraid there鈥檚 not gonna be enough, I鈥檓 afraid of exposing myself. I鈥檇 like to be less afraid.
If I gamble on the story of God being true, I can live differently in the world.
That would make for a really compelling way of living. How do we get there?
There鈥檚 a lot we can learn in how we define the miraculous, and how we define being human. What I find to be so amazing is that the same God, who I truly believe does what we would call miracles, allows people to still love people, and live life to the fullest, in the face of death. That feels miraculous. Being with people in that, watching them do justice in the world, is transformational for both of us.
So often in 鈥渕issions鈥� work, we begin to understand how complex the world is, and we panic and feel like we can鈥檛 do anything. No鈥攚e can slow down, ask better questions, find conversation partners. We as North Americans often start our ways of doing justice in the world with, 鈥淲e do know, and we can help.鈥� If we start from 鈥淚 don鈥檛 know, and I can鈥檛 help,鈥� imagine how powerful the collaboration can be with others around the world. I think that鈥檚 the start of great work in the world: getting together and throwing all our assets on the table.
You use that metaphor of the table in your book, too. Can you say more about that?
There鈥檚 a chapter called 鈥淪etting a Bigger Table,鈥� and I think that鈥檚 the crux of the conflict right now in the Christian community. Who gets to be the guest? Who gets to be the host? How many people get to sit at the table? When we really begin to question who gets invited and who calls the shots, things change.
That鈥檚 my hope in all this鈥攖hat we continue to talk honestly across a whole bunch of lines about what it means to be a Christian in the world.
Tickets for the December 5 book release event include a signed copy of Closer to the Edge.