What if there is more beyond traditional church and talk therapy models? How do we use the transformative tools of psychology and theology, but also not get stuck in models that lack responsiveness to these times? Theologians, Dwight Friesen and Joel Kiekintveld, join in conversation with psychologist, Paul Hoard, as they explore the question of therapeutic models beyond church pews and the therapy couch. Drawing on insights from psychoanalyst, Jacques Lacan, and sociologist, Philip Rieff, they explore alternative pathways to discourse that critique the assumption that knowledge is held through mastery, control, and order.