I鈥檓 one of the many that became fascinated by the podcast after a friend recommended it. Then, when listening to Episode 5 (鈥淭he Things We Do to Women鈥�), I was surprised to hear a familiar voice: my colleague Dr. Rose Madrid-Swetman. Dr. Madrid-Swetman, the Northwest Regional Leader of the denomination and an adjunct faculty member at 天美视频 of Theology & Psychology, shared about her experience providing pastoral care for people who had left Mars Hill.

Listening to The Rise and Fall podcast brought to mind so many of the concepts that Dr. Rose Madrid-Swetman teaches in our shared project, Certificate in Resilient Service at 天美视频 of Theology & Psychology. As the researcher for this program, I wanted to hear more about her experience about what hurts and helps Christian leaders who are trying to avoid the pitfalls of abusive leadership and structures.

Andrea: When Mike Cosper called and asked to interview you for this podcast, what compelled you to say yes?

Dr. Madrid-Swetman: I thought it was important to tell the story. As a female pastor in the city of Seattle, I was constantly hearing the stories of women being traumatized by the toxic theology and culture of Mars Hill Church. My hope is the church universal can listen to the people that have been harmed and learn from stories like that of Mars Hill. If we are willing to hear, there is so much to learn.

Andrea: Clearly, Mars Hill is a visible example of church dysfunction, but it鈥檚 far from the only church to struggle like this. How have you seen similar dynamics play out in other churches with other leaders?

Dr. Madrid-Swetman: This is true. Mark is not an anomaly. What happened at Mars Hill has played out over and over again in both small and large churches. The West鈥檚 industrial religious complex is designed to produce and reward leaders who misuse their power like this. As I was teaching leadership classes at 天美视频, I would tell my students that Mars Hill is an excellent case study in this kind of abuse of power that is enabled by some churches.

Andrea: Part of what drew my compassion in this podcast was the hurt experienced by other leaders at Mars Hill as they were drawn in by Driscoll. Cosper concludes that many of these leaders (who were almost exclusively men) were drawn to Driscoll due to experiences way back in their childhoods. What would you tell a leader who wants to be aware of their vulnerabilities to manipulation from those who lead them and those who they lead?

Dr. Madrid-Swetman: I would say you have to know your story, you have to do a deep dive into the impact of your early years and understand how you were formed in your family. That process brings a self-awareness of your strengths and weaknesses鈥攁nd also an awareness of how you repeat, in the present, patterns of relating that you learned in your family. By understanding and working through how you were formed in your family, you learn how you could be vulnerable to manipulation or how you are set up to lead from your weaknesses, often causing harm.

Andrea: Another Mars Hill dynamic that Cosper draws out is the echo chamber it created for leaders. It struck me how much the leaders around Driscoll would have been helped by receiving more outside perspectives. Leadership in the church is often isolating, so how can leaders find that kind of perspective and support?

Dr. Madrid-Swetman: This is important. I think all leaders need a community of people outside of their church who they get input from鈥攑eople they can be completely real with. That could be peers from other denominations, a therapist, a spiritual director or a mentor that you trust. Leaders need safe spaces to reflect vulnerably. Mars Hill had a closed system, theologically and socially. When you are in a closed system, vulnerability is too risky. I think leaders begin to internalize so many emotions that they cannot name. I have seen this in leaders who are struggling, feeling like they are not enough, and also with leaders like Mark who seem to have it all. I was part of a group that met with Mark in 2006 to discuss his public vitriolic speech about women; in talking with us, his defense about why he did not have mentors was that every person who he went to for mentoring ended up being jealous of him. I suggested he see a Roman Catholic priest for spiritual direction. I told him I guaranteed a priest would not be jealous of him.

Andrea: A lot of your work with Certificate in Resilient Service (CRS), which you helped design and currently teach in, is focused on creating healthy, sustainable lives for leaders. How is your work with CRS informed by your experiences with churches like Mars Hill?

Dr. Madrid-Swetman: I would say my work is informed by churches like Mars Hill and also by my own experience of leading a congregation. Leading a congregation can be one of the most isolating of vocations. It is so challenging to navigate all that comes with it, including the expectations you put on yourself and the expectations others have. I have seen so many leaders crash and burn. Many of them I know did not have the tools or the people in their lives to create a safe environment for vulnerability. Seeing this process play out over and over again in the lives of leaders, dear people with good intentions, made me even more committed to create safe spaces for leaders and advocate for sustainable ministry.

Andrea: What are the practices you recommend for Christian leaders who are seeking to be emotionally healthy?

Dr. Madrid-Swetman: I have so many thoughts on this. I think the practices of curiosity and reflection–about the leader鈥檚 life and the life of others鈥攊s key. Paying attention to what is happening in the world is also important. Right now that means engaging the question 鈥淗ow do we think theologically in a time of great upheaval and change?鈥� Also, I would say it is imperative for a leader to commit to practices that keep them connected to God, the practices that ground you in the love of God,

Andrea: Seeing the narcissism of Driscoll increase as his power increased was not a surprise to me鈥攔esearch has shown that not only does ministry make those inclined to narcissism worse, but also that the pressures of ministry can actually induce narcissism in pastors who may not have otherwise been disposed to it. What counsel do you have for church leaders who want to create healthy conditions for their pastors to work in?

Dr. Madrid-Swetman: The system has to be one that will support leaders. Pastors cannot be endlessly giving care; they also need to receive care. That may mean the board allocates money and time for pastors to receive care. Congregations need to create an environment where leaders do not have to hide, but can be honest and ask for help. Too many pastors and leaders have to hide their struggles for fear of losing their jobs, their source of income. That requires that black and white thinking is challenged and people learn to hold dynamic tension. And, related to what happened at Mars Hill, I recommend that churches look at their own bylaws and see who holds the power if the church goes into crisis.

Andrea: Rose, you have been such a source of blessing in my own life. Can you leave us with a blessing for leaders–your hopes and prayers for those seeking to serve with humility and integrity?

Dr. Madrid-Swetman: I pray for leaders, that they would find safe spaces to be honest about their struggles. Places they can be honest with themselves and others. I pray they would seek out people who can come alongside them to remind them of who they are and who they are becoming. I pray they will resist the temptations that Henry Nouwen so timely named in Life of the Beloved, the temptations to be relevant, spectacular and powerful. I bless them to lead with humility, compassion and creativity. And, I pray that they may do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with the Lord. Amen.

If you are interested in hearing more from Rose about her experience providing pastoral care to people wounded by their experience with Mars Hill Church, listen to her on the podcast , featured in episodes 鈥淭he Things We Do to Women鈥� and 鈥淭he Bobby Knight Problem.鈥�

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鈥淚 am abundantly grateful to Mike Anderson for leading our board over the past eight years. His tenure of board leadership has helped to stabilize us as we have embarked on the task of growing into a mature organization. I also want to express my deep gratitude to Dave Brandt and Mark Daley, who both made immeasurable contributions to our school in ways that we will appreciate years into our future,鈥� said Dr. J. Derek McNeil, President of 天美视频.

“天美视频’s Board of Trustees is an amazing group of people that I will miss rubbing shoulders with. Passing the baton of leadership to Shannon Eckmann is a true delight. She is a natural in the role of Board Chair, and I trust her to lead this community into the next season,鈥� said Mike Anderson on Shannon Eckmann鈥檚 recent appointment. In addition to her role as Board Chair, Shannon serves as an Executive Coach at , an executive coaching organization.

Upon her recent appointment, Shannon stated, 鈥淕ood leaders are guided by a passion for their organization and its people. I鈥檝e spent many years with 天美视频 and love the mission of what we strive to accomplish along with the gifted faculty and staff who deliver a quality experience to our students. Partnering with our Board of Trustees and our President, Dr. McNeil, we look to the future of Christian graduate education as an exciting and challenging task, and we are up for it!鈥�

Though stepping down from the board, Mike Anderson begins a full-time position with 天美视频 as Executive Vice President of Finance and Administration. 鈥淎s I look forward to having more time with Mike in his full-time role on our staff, I am particularly grateful for his leadership and the strength and stability that he brings to the realms of finance and administrative business in our institution. I have always highly valued Mike鈥檚 investment in our mission, and I am honored to work with him as we build for 天美视频鈥檚 future,鈥� said Dr. J. Derek McNeil.

Romanita Hairston, a returning trustee to the board, serves as a Director at Microsoft with responsibility for leading a global skilling portfolio and as the President and Founder of MORE320, a nonprofit consulting company. A nationally-recognized thought leader, Romanita regularly speaks on issues related to poverty and child well-being, missional theology and spiritual formation, and the future of work and learning.

“It’s wonderful to have Romanita Hairston return to 天美视频’s Board of Trustees,鈥� said Dr. J. Derek McNeil. 鈥淪he is thoughtful, energetic, innovative, and incisive. Romanita understands future trends and will bring a new perspective on how adult learners can be approached and engaged. Her entrepreneurial energy paired with pastoral awareness makes Romanita an invaluable asset to our Board.”

Visit our directory to see a list of all members of the Board of Trustees.

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鈥淒r. McNeil brings a rich background in leadership to who 天美视频 is and an important perspective on who 天美视频 is called to be. Derek leads with poise, discernment, vulnerability, and faithfulness. The Board has full confidence that Dr. McNeil will be a courageous, creative leader in building a bridge into the future,鈥� stated Mike Anderson, Chair of the Board of Trustees.

Dr. McNeil has a PhD in Counseling Psychology from Northwestern University and an MDiv from Fuller Theological Seminary. Prior to his tenure at 天美视频, Dr. McNeil served as faculty in the PsyD program at Wheaton College Graduate School for over 15 years.

Dr. McNeil has worked as a clinician in private practice, a diversity advisor, an organizational consultant, and an administrator. His research, writing, and speaking have focused on issues of ethnic and racial socialization, the role of forgiveness in peacemaking, the identity development of African-American males, and marital intimacy. He has written chapters in The Black Family: Past, Present, and Future (1991),Men to Men: Voices of African American Males (1996), Why Psychology Needs Theology (2005), This Side of Heaven: Race ethnicity and Christain faith (2007), Reluctant Integration (2010), and Roadmap to Reconciliation: Moving communities into unity, wholeness and justice. (2016). His teaching has also included coursework on Social, Cultural, and Spiritual Foundations of Mental Health; Family Systems Therapy; Group Theory; Therapy; and Leadership.

Since joining the leadership team at 天美视频 in 2009 as Senior Vice President of Academic Affairs, Dr. McNeil has been integral to our pursuit of regional accreditation, the reimagining of our common curriculum, and securing over $1 million in grant funding.

Dr. Dan Allender, Founding President and Professor of Counseling Psychology, also shared his delight in Dr. McNeil鈥檚 appointment: 鈥淲hen I think about what Derek brings, it鈥檚 the perfect interplay of text.soul.culture. He is a brilliant psychologist. He has richly studied and loves the word of God. He has engaged with the realities of the intersection of faith, identity, race, and culture. In a deeply divided culture鈥攑olitically and relationally鈥擠erek embodies the goodness of having suffered deeply and hoped deeply. He has lived out so much of what is core to the School鈥檚 calling鈥攖o be a healing presence in a deeply divided world.鈥�

Details about formally installing Dr. McNeil as president are forthcoming. As a community, we are privileged to have Dr. McNeil step into a role he has been faithfully stewarding and we look forward to his continued direction and leadership in the years to come.

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