Annie: 鈥淲hile I鈥檓 concerned about what you would think of as politics鈥攚hat would be in the political section of a newspaper鈥擨鈥檓 also thinking about the politics of being human, the politics of church, the relational dynamics between people and between groups. That鈥檚 kind of what I mean by political in the broader sense.鈥�

Annie is the host of , a podcast exploring the long and often problematic story of Christianity in the United States, grounded in the hope that by better understanding where other perspectives are coming from, we can be better conversation partners across difference and contribute to sustainable, collaborative social change.鈥� Her work is primarily concerned with two questions, she says: What do we believe it means to be human? And what do we believe is true about God? On God Help Us, Annie and her guests wrestle with how both of those questions inform our relationship to each other and our response to events in the world around us.

Annie: 鈥�God Help Us is about information, it鈥檚 about what are our commonly held beliefs in this country, how are they informed by our Christian heritage? […] I鈥檓 hoping, on a more meta level, that it鈥檚 also a way of modeling those conversations, so we can feel defensive and have all the human range of emotions while we鈥檙e disagreeing with each other and still continue to talk to each other.”

Much of Annie鈥檚 work can be connected to the category of spiritual darkness, which was the focus of her Integrative Project at 天美视频, 鈥淢aking a Home in the Dark.鈥� In our 2018 Integrative Project Symposium, Annie offered this insight into what draws her to working with spiritual darkness: 鈥淚 think that in those times when everything has been stripped away, we also lose hold of the lies we have believed about ourselves, about each other, and about God. So I鈥檓 left only with my desire and the question of what to do with it, and the question of what to do with this new reality. And I find that the only option really is to come home to myself. And in those places, I find that God is waiting for me there.鈥�

Annie: 鈥淲hen we recognize that we have put our faith in something like patriarchy, it doesn鈥檛 let us go easily. These periods of darkness, of feeling completely lost and at our wits鈥� end, both communally and individually鈥攊t forces us to give up hope in what we鈥檝e put our hope in. And that is this great gift that we can then decide we鈥檙e going to do something different now.鈥�

In an era of fragmented relationships鈥攁nd, therefore, fragmented politics鈥攚e are deeply grateful for the insightful, far-reaching conversations Annie is hosting. Here鈥檚 to listening deeply, speaking boldly, and returning again and again to our connections with each other.

Resources to Go Deeper

• You can learn more about Annie鈥檚 work, including God Help Us, at . And if you have ideas for future topics or guests on the podcast, email godhelp.podcast@gmail.com.
• As this conversation turned to purity culture, it brought to mind an article by Lauren Sawyer (MA in Theology & Culture, (鈥�14). Shauna asked Lauren to record an excerpt for this episode, and here鈥檚 the full article from Feminist Studies in Religion:
• To be fair, Annie鈥檚 reference to is more tangential than thematic. But it really is a great film!
• Shauna references an episode from NPR鈥檚 Invisibilia podcast about the relationship between uncertainty and dogmatism, and what we do when we don鈥檛 know what to do.
• Annie mentions being inspired by this article from Tyrone Beason at the Seattle Times:
• Just in time for summer, we got a bunch of book recommendations from Annie. Happy reading!
  • by Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers
  • by Frank Schaeffer
  • and by Amber Cantorna
  • by Mary Daly
  • by Miguel A. de la Torre

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Esther: 鈥淩eality is person-like, and our essential human desire is to know, to understand, to have intimate contact and communion with reality.鈥�

There is a contagious sense of delight in how Esther presents her ideas, and it鈥檚 a bit sneaky: She鈥檚 engaging dense, complex theories, and if you鈥檙e not already into philosophy it might be easy to say 鈥淥h I鈥檓 not interested in that,鈥� or 鈥淭hat鈥檚 over my head.鈥� But if you listen, you might start to hear a contagious, almost childlike joy. Esther describes it as 鈥渆xuberant realism鈥濃�攁 grounded, thoughtful desire to approach the big questions of life with vibrant love and an openness to delight. With this posture, philosophy is not about abstract theory detached from our day-to-day realities; it鈥檚 a discipline that invites us to wrestle with the deep needs of our time in new and meaningful ways.

鈥淭here鈥檚 one thing you need to be philosophical, and that is to be born. Because to be human is to be philosophical.鈥�

Esther: 鈥淚t has everything to do with love of God, but it has everything to do with love of his reality, too.鈥�

Much of this conversation stems from the conviction that our 鈥渄efective modernist epistemology鈥� and our attempts to control reality are problematic, and that we are in need of a new perspective on our relationship to the real. Esther shares how, in her teaching and writing, her hope is to cultivate 鈥渓overs of the real鈥濃�攊ndividuals whose adoration for God and God鈥檚 creation compels them to ask better questions, to pursue meaningful work, and to welcome each other with hospitality and delight. Derek and Esther discuss how that turn toward others is also reflected in what we know of human psychology: to be gazed upon with delight, and to offer delight toward others, is a central part of developing an integrated identity.

Esther: 鈥淭o be seen with delight by someone else is something that allows you to find yourself in that gaze.鈥�

Derek: 鈥淚n the current political climate of our country, it鈥檚 been hard to delight in each other, very hard to see beauty. What we seem focused on is ugliness, and our inability to see each other and delight in each other has been a real challenge.鈥�

Esther鈥檚 insights and philosophies have profound implications on how we conceive of God, how we serve each other, and how we respond to trauma and dis-integration in our world. We are deeply grateful for her work and for the generosity of her presence with us. Thanks to Dr. Esther Meek for joining us, and thanks to all of you for listening!

Resources to Go Deeper

• For more from Esther Meek, you can watch her presentation from the 2018 Stanley Grenz Lecture Series, including a panel conversation with Dr. Dan Allender and Dr. Chelle Stearns: Integration in a Dis-Integrated World.
• Esther鈥檚 writing has been an important presence in our classrooms for many years. To jump into her work for yourself, a good starting point might be .
• Esther cites Francis Schaeffer鈥檚 book as helping her realize at a young age that her questions about God and the world were not sin, they were philosophical.
• Much of Esther鈥檚 ideas have been developed in conversation with the work of Michael Polanyi, whose text seemed like the only voice in Esther鈥檚 philosophical quest that addressed her deepest questions about reality.

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Shauna: 鈥淚 want to hone in, in this next season, on dropping down into the topics that have this weightiness to them that have to do with this particular period of time in the world.鈥�

Derek: 鈥淢ore lately, I think of text.soul.culture as being a vehicle of service. So I鈥檓 sure I鈥檒l be asking a lot more questions about serving. […] This season will be around us trying to figure out how do we serve?鈥�

If you鈥檝e listened to past episodes, you鈥檒l notice some differences in Season Three, including changes in production and episode structure. At the end of this episode, Nicole talks with Beau Denton, Content Curator, about some of these updates. We hope these changes reflect continued growth and innovation, while remaining true to our original mission for the text.soul.culture podcast: Grounded in the hope of fostering faithful dialogue, we are guided by a commitment to understanding narrative, wrestling with intersections, resisting reactivity, and fostering radical hospitality.

Beau: 鈥淎s an institution, we prioritize human dialogue. And that鈥檚 so different than one person speaking a monologue or writing a blog on their own. This is about conversation. […] My role here will be kind of an emcee to help facilitate the good work that our hosts are doing.鈥�

Stay tuned in coming weeks as we feature compelling conversations with alumni, faculty, and other thought leaders about living as wise, engaged, and courageous people in times of division and fragmentation. In the meantime, we would love to hear your feedback! If you have questions, responses, or ideas for future conversations, you can email us at communications@theseattleschool.edu.

Resources to Go Deeper

• In Season One, Derek engaged in conversations with Dr. Soong-Chan Rah, Jimmy McGee, Dr. Caprice Hollins, and 天美视频 faculty including Dr. Ron Ruthruff, Dr. Chelle Stearns, Dr. Angela Parker, and Dr. Stephanie Neill. You can catch up on all the episodes from Season One here.
• In Season Two, we introduced occasional 鈥渕inisodes,鈥� short conversations around the building about Lent, 天美视频鈥檚 Artist Residency, and what it means to be heard. We also welcomed Shauna Gauthier as a host and shared 鈥淔rom the Field鈥� episodes with Smruti Desai and Jeremy Dew, and we featured conversations with Nikkita Oliver, Dr. Curt Thompson, Dr. Dwight Friesen, and more. Listen to Season Two here.

text.soul.culture Hosts

Dr. Derek McNeil is the Acting President and Provost at 天美视频. He has a PhD in Counseling Psychology from Northwestern University and an MDiv from Fuller Theological Seminary, and his research, writing, and speaking have focused on issues of ethnic and racial socialization, the role of forgiveness in peacemaking, the identity development of African-American males, and marital intimacy. Learn more about Derek here.

Shauna Gauthier received her MA in Counseling Psychology from 天美视频 in 2010. She previously worked in the Denver Metro area as a therapist and a nonprofit program manager; she also helped launch 天美视频鈥檚 Colorado Alumni Chapter. After returning to Seattle, Shauna now serves as the Alumni Outreach Coordinator. She also enjoys writing and speaking about motherhood, feminism, and faith. Learn more about Shauna here.

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February is designated as a month to celebrate love鈥攁nd if you cringe a bit when you read that, we understand. Because the ways that designation is celebrated, culminating in Valentine鈥檚 Day, are often cheesy and void of meaning (not to mention commercially exploited). Our culture presents us with a fantasy of connection, but more often than not, the solutions that promise to fulfill the fantasy turn out to be a bit like building a sandcastle in a hurricane. So it鈥檚 no wonder that many people, overstressed and under-connected, resign themselves鈥攃onsciously or not鈥攖o the idea that 鈥渞eal relationships鈥� take too much work, opting for the safety of familiarity and isolation rather than the naked risk of love.

But this we believe: to be human means to live in relationship. It is in relation to each other and to the world around us that we are most fully ourselves, most fully in tune with the image of God in which we were created. If we settle for the fantasy of connection, or reject the fantasy but spiral into cynicism, we lose access to core parts of our identities and callings. Deep, dynamic relationships, though, are not without risk; when we open ourselves to others and to our unpredictable world, we are exposing our own broken parts to the jagged and broken parts of others. This can get messy, to say the least.

All this month on the Intersections blog, we鈥檒l be diving into that beautiful, terrifying, holy mess of relationships. And we鈥檙e not just talking about marriage or other forms of romantic love. We鈥檒l be exploring the nature of friendship, the ways we relate to ourselves and hold our sense of identity, and what it means to let the steady currents of love move in the midst of fear, pain, and uncertainty.

So here鈥檚 to messiness, mystery, and a bold commitment to relationship in the face of empty fantasies and cultural disconnection. Because the need is too great, and the moment too urgent, to not take seriously our deep need for dynamic, life-giving connection with God, ourselves, and each other.

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